[David Moser]

Rule 10.6.

If after a stoppage of play a pass is attempted while a violation of 10.2. is called and the pass is dropped by the offence it says that the pass does not count. (if the pass is caught the disc goes back to the thrower that is obvious)

If the defence retracts the violation of 10.2. would it be a turnover? (rule 15.10.)

Also in 16.2. it says that after a violation is called play continous if 16.2.1, 16.2.2 or 16.2.3 apply. In 16.2.4.1 it says that if the team that called the violation reatains possession play shall continue. In the example explained above the defence called a violation of 10.2. but then retains possession (because of the drop) so the play stands which contradicts to the rule 10.6.

The only valubale explanation for me would be if the disc is treated as not live after a violation of 10.6.

I ask this because at the moment the offence has a double advantage. If they move to early but then drop the disc they still get the disc back.

[Benji Heywood]

Rule 10.6 is obviously written in such a way that it would override rule 16.2 in this instance. However, I agree it’s not completely clear and could be improved.

I’m not sure about the double advantage – there’s no advantage to the offence in moving early. The pass won’t stand. It’s simply that there is also no punishment, which is the case for a great many breaches of the rules. It’s trusted that no one will breach them intentionally and so quite a number of breaches incur no penalty.

[Florian Pfender]

A violation of 10.2 by definition happens before the check, i.e. when the disc is still dead. Continuation (16.2) does not apply.

You can not gain an advantage by retracting a call, so no, retracting it does not create a turn either.

[David Moser]

Thank you Flo. I thought it through again an a violation of 10.2. can only happen before the check so the disc is still dead thus no turnover possible and even a call reatraction would not help because the disc is still dead… 🙂

The problem that we sometimes have is that the marker checks the disc but the defence player says he was not “ready” respecitvely still moving towards his opponent which in my oppinion is his own fault respectively the fault of the marker who didn’t check with his teammates so the play stands.
But according to the rules he could also claim a violation of 10.2. that he was still moving towards his offence player eventhoug his own player made the check. Agree with that?

[David Moser]

Just found an answer to my followup question here…

http://rules.wfdf.org/discussions/interpretations/68-calling-violation-of-10-2-on-own-team

[Florian Pfender]

Just conferred with Benji again. I was slightly off with my reasoning. In theory, one could invoke 16.2 (if the call is very late), as 16.2 refers to the time of the call, not the violation. But the more specific 10.6 trumps the less specific 16.2, so no turn.

The reason to write 10.6 was in line with my original argument: violations during a stoppage should never influence play.

Btw, in the old discussion there was a mistake: it was argued that you can call a violation of 10.2 on your own team, but that is untrue. Violations can only be called on the opponent.

[David Moser]

Okay I get the first part. It will NEVER be a turn even if the call is late because the more specific rule 10.6. always trumps the 16.2. even if a easy pass is dropped…

But I’m unsure about the second point now.

It often happens that the marker checks the disc while one of his teammates is still moving (even if just moving slightly to to right position). In 10.4. it says that the person checking the disc must first verify with the nearest opposition player that their team is ready. It actually says nothing that he has to verify that his own team is ready. I undertand your argument that it doesn’t make sense to call a violation on your own team (in this case on your marker); but then again in the sense of good spirit the disc should be returned to the thrower and the marker should be instructed to only make a check if his own team is ready… I guess I would always try to manage it this way. If it happens a second time in the game then probably I would also say it is our own fault and play shoud continue…

[Florian Pfender]

[quote=”mosley77″ post=472]
It often happens that the marker checks the disc while one of his teammates is still moving (even if just moving slightly to to right position). In 10.4. it says that the person checking the disc must first verify with the nearest opposition player that their team is ready. It actually says nothing that he has to verify that his own team is ready. I undertand your argument that it doesn’t make sense to call a violation on your own team (in this case on your marker); but then again in the sense of good spirit the disc should be returned to the thrower and the marker should be instructed to only make a check if his own team is ready… I guess I would always try to manage it this way. If it happens a second time in the game then probably I would also say it is our own fault and play shoud continue…[/quote]

This is more similar to other situations: often, it is advantageous to not call a violation or foul. This is always up to the team not committing the infraction. Why would it be different for this case?

[David Moser]

I think we are not talking about the same thing now; I’m a bit confused about your last comment… :side:

If after a stoppage of play the marker checks the disc and the thrower then completes a pass to Player A although Player B who is guarding Player A was not yet ready, speaking he was still moving to the right position 10.2.1. then this is a disadvantage for the team of Player B. But since the marker (teammate of Player B) checked the disc in, Player B is no longer entitled to call a violation since his own teammate checked the disc thus gave the thrower the OK to throw the disc. I see that the Offence will not call a violation of 10.2. since their pass was caught by player A but Player B would surley like to call a violation of 10.2. because he was not “ready” speaking not in the right position yet.

But if I understood correctly Player B is NOT allowed to call a violation and the play stands
(althoug mentioned differently here: http://rules.wfdf.org/discussions/interpretations/68-calling-violation-of-10-2-on-own-team)

In my oppinion good spirit would be to give the disc back and inform the marker that he has to chekc with all of his teammate before making the check…

[Florian Pfender]

The only one violating 10.2 is player B, as he is not stationary in the correct position at the time of the check. He would be calling a violation on himself.

[David Moser]

Agree.